Haven't thought about God...
At least not as an adult. Well, maybe I have. But never in a wondering way. Wondering if he/she/it would fit back into my life. I spent the first almost-19 years of my life as a Roman Catholic. Communion, confession, confirmation. And religiously (ha!) attending mass and even attaining religious recognition in Cub and Boy Scouts. But the last 15 years of life have been spent denouncing. Justifying my lack of religion to myself and others. Knowing in my somtimes-shallow heart that there was no place for religion. Did I merely need to make a place, or was there really nothing inside me that would allow religion to be there?
Well, I thought about all that a little bit this AM. Frightening, really. A lot of my life has veered from the path of good. But there are too many variables for me to decide that one thing has caused that deviation from where I want to be. So I think I need to eliminate some things. I believe that religion, in the organized sense, has no place in my heart or my home. If God really exists, it makes no sense. As devastatingly powerful as he should be, why has there been no clear sign? Why has he not painted a billboard saying that one religion is right or wrong? Why has he not taken his power to lead more of us to the light?
At the very end of life, most religions believe that repentance will set us free. The very notion that we screwed up our whole life, but can get to Shangri-La simple by honestly apologizing BAFFLES ME. If he really and truly wants us to be with him when we die, why not show us the true way? Make the clouds align to form words...something undisputable. If God really is out there, he is a sick twisted bastard with a painful sense of humor. I'm sure this offends some of you. Good. Life is meant to be full of these moments. I don't have ill will towards anyone who has welcomed religion in to their life. Whatever works. Don't preach your way to me, and I won't argue mine. If you feel passionately, we can talk ... like I am doing here. But don't slam me just for speaking my heart and mind. OK?
Life is truly a gift. We are all instilled with the sense of right and wrong, unless denied that through fate or mental injury. When we lie our heads on our pillow at night, as long as we can sleep well and know that we tried to do the right thing, what more is there? If we know we did wrong, right it as soon as we can. Be open. Be honest. Talk to people about our intentions when we wronged them. If they don't forgive us and carry on their life being bitter, so what? We tried, right?
That has reared its head in my life so many times. I wonder if I am more of a screw-up than most people. I wonder if I just pay closer attention. I wonder a lot of things. But I know that for who I am, where I am, religion is not welcome. I only touched on a few issues here. All of my thought processes could not fit into this blog. I have some warm fuzzy feelings about religion, don't get me wrong. Just not enough of them.
Someone (well, loads of people actually) relayed this anecdote to me. I'm sure you have heard it:
"Sit in a room. Look around. Then close your eyes. Is the room still there? Why do you think it still is there, though you can't see it? Faith."
Well, no. Because of experience. If I suddenly woke up in a hospital room, riddled with amnesia, I would look around for a moment, baffled. I would likely close my eyes tightly and re-open them, hoping that the world I just saw wasn't real. I wouldn't magically be instilled with faith that the room is there. In my life, I have closed and open my eyes billions of times. And all but a very small percentage have been welcomed with life being exactly as I had anticipated. The times it was different? Times like when you are driving and you nod off for a split second. That kinda thing. I KNOW that the world is still there. I have seen it. It has proven itself to me. I don't have faith that my furniture will still be there when I open my eyes. I don't have faith that my surroundings exist. I know they do. I touch and smell and hear and taste them all the time. I even talk to them. Inanimate or not. Maybe I am an idiot.
OK, enough banter for Sunday morning.
-Rich
Well, I thought about all that a little bit this AM. Frightening, really. A lot of my life has veered from the path of good. But there are too many variables for me to decide that one thing has caused that deviation from where I want to be. So I think I need to eliminate some things. I believe that religion, in the organized sense, has no place in my heart or my home. If God really exists, it makes no sense. As devastatingly powerful as he should be, why has there been no clear sign? Why has he not painted a billboard saying that one religion is right or wrong? Why has he not taken his power to lead more of us to the light?
At the very end of life, most religions believe that repentance will set us free. The very notion that we screwed up our whole life, but can get to Shangri-La simple by honestly apologizing BAFFLES ME. If he really and truly wants us to be with him when we die, why not show us the true way? Make the clouds align to form words...something undisputable. If God really is out there, he is a sick twisted bastard with a painful sense of humor. I'm sure this offends some of you. Good. Life is meant to be full of these moments. I don't have ill will towards anyone who has welcomed religion in to their life. Whatever works. Don't preach your way to me, and I won't argue mine. If you feel passionately, we can talk ... like I am doing here. But don't slam me just for speaking my heart and mind. OK?
Life is truly a gift. We are all instilled with the sense of right and wrong, unless denied that through fate or mental injury. When we lie our heads on our pillow at night, as long as we can sleep well and know that we tried to do the right thing, what more is there? If we know we did wrong, right it as soon as we can. Be open. Be honest. Talk to people about our intentions when we wronged them. If they don't forgive us and carry on their life being bitter, so what? We tried, right?
That has reared its head in my life so many times. I wonder if I am more of a screw-up than most people. I wonder if I just pay closer attention. I wonder a lot of things. But I know that for who I am, where I am, religion is not welcome. I only touched on a few issues here. All of my thought processes could not fit into this blog. I have some warm fuzzy feelings about religion, don't get me wrong. Just not enough of them.
Someone (well, loads of people actually) relayed this anecdote to me. I'm sure you have heard it:
"Sit in a room. Look around. Then close your eyes. Is the room still there? Why do you think it still is there, though you can't see it? Faith."
Well, no. Because of experience. If I suddenly woke up in a hospital room, riddled with amnesia, I would look around for a moment, baffled. I would likely close my eyes tightly and re-open them, hoping that the world I just saw wasn't real. I wouldn't magically be instilled with faith that the room is there. In my life, I have closed and open my eyes billions of times. And all but a very small percentage have been welcomed with life being exactly as I had anticipated. The times it was different? Times like when you are driving and you nod off for a split second. That kinda thing. I KNOW that the world is still there. I have seen it. It has proven itself to me. I don't have faith that my furniture will still be there when I open my eyes. I don't have faith that my surroundings exist. I know they do. I touch and smell and hear and taste them all the time. I even talk to them. Inanimate or not. Maybe I am an idiot.
OK, enough banter for Sunday morning.
-Rich
posted by Rich at 2/19/2006 10:37:00 AM
17 Comments:
Well at least you wont tell me Im a satan worshipper!!
Glad you are having a marvelous weekend!
So the next time you run into someone who says they are blessed after you ask how they are you can now rightfully say...
Ill be damned!!
"I'll be damned" is one of my most favorite quote from Beavis. You know I always say that.
-Rich
I miss hearing it in my ear :::wink wink::::
So my Pagan ass isnt going to bother you is it?
RB-
So many thoughts to respond to...I guess I will start with religion. I heard a really great description of religion once--the speaker is an indistinct TV image now--but they spoke about religion being the thing that gets in the way. Religion as the middleman between people and god (if there is such a thing) and that it was unnecessary. That religion is the invention of man and churches and can have a lot to do with power and money.
So I think about religion as a device or a tool that exists for some people and can be important for them because it serves as this way that they can have what they consider to be a spiritual life. Or a device or framework that they rely on to create an order or permission for themselves to be in another frame of mind. Like designating a certain day of the week to be more "god-oriented" than another--how interesting? Interesting to think about any framework that we rely on or use as a tool to create order or permission. How one organizes one's actions or personalities around different times of day or sections of the year--organizes around a system of any unit of time---how interesting that an hour is divided into 60 parts and that part equals exactly what it does and that I organize my existence around those units changing from one to the next--interesting , arbitrary?, and yet necessary for me. Perhaps enlightenment is achieved the less and less one needs to rely on a system and framework? hmm...the gist of why I started along this stream was that I don't think God and religion have to have anything to do with each other or that you need religion to have a dialogue/connection with god.
If there is such a thing as GOD/force I think it is all the more fascinating, appropriate, and sometimes agonizing that there is not a big message in the sky. Things in this world appear to be more complex and simple, at the same time, than that.
Everything is relative to something else around here too. In terms of right or wrong or the "one way". There are very few singular truths that I can think of; anything that comes to mind has to do with ideas that are scientifically concrete at this moment (i.e. humans need oxygen to breathe) and scientific understanding changes all the time. All the religions or whatever are all just different inventions/interpretations by folks on the foundation of how this world functions etc. and no matter what systems or labels anyone puts to anything does that actually change the whatever is the underlying fabric--like if one calls sand wood does it actually change the property of sand.
Thinking about what is myth versus reality versus belief is very fascinating to me. I haven't read the book but I saw an interview quite a while ago with Dr. Carolyn Weiss (I think) she was speaking about some concepts that are inside of her book "Anatomy of the Spirit"----she spoke about how anyone can define themselves around something but that that doesn't make it a truth--like how a recovering alcoholic can get on this boat and that boat is alcoholism and they can make their life all about what it means to be addicted to alcohol. But that does not have to define them and they can figure out when it is alright to get off that boat and make their life about something else.
Okay enough for now--apologies for any annoying grammar or spelling. Please respond if anything that I wrote is confusing-- and I will try and take another vacation from responsibilities and digress some more.
Vacation from responsibility? Far from it, you nerd. I feel there is not only a responsibility but a moral imperative to provide such dissertations. I wholeheartedly enjoy and appreciate such an intricate and thought-out comments. Religion most definitely gets in the way of so many things, spirituality being one of them. God, if such a thing exists, would not need a middleman. The Art History Minor of mine provided a terrific catalyst for finding loose ends in religion. The beginning of my study of art was the end of my faith in God. Funny how that concided...
Thank you for the comments...keep them coming. Damn, I love thinking.
-RB
Love this kind of conversation.
Two quick points.
1) I believe that there must be a "God" in so far as the universe is simply made entirely of energy... organized energy. And something must organize this energy... an intelligece of some sort. The source of this intelligence (whatever/wherever that is) is where you'll find God. It seems to me that this is about a specific as reasonable people can get to defining God. To try and go further it seems to me is grasping at straws. Moreover, is it really important as humans that we go further than this in defining God?
2) What surprises me most about religious people in this world is the lengths that they will go to in order to defend their religious beliefs or prosecute their religious beliefs. It's one thing to say "This is what I believe because it feels right to me." and another to cause great suffering and pain either to oneself or to others because religious beliefs? I would say to anyone who would do this. "Are you THAT sure about the truthfulness of your religious teachings that you would cause great suffering either to yourself or fellow human beings on behalf of these beliefs?" All I know is that if I am going to kill someone or blow up a building full of innocent people, or commit suicide, or rape, pillage, and plunder a foreign country on behalf of my religion...I'm not gonna do it because of something written in a book or words spoken from another human being, it's gonna take GOD HIMSELF to convince me to do that... and he better bring a bagful of miracles just so I am SURE it's him - and even then I probably wouldn't do it... cuz what kind of God would promote suffering? Certainly not one I'm interested in. And yet suffering happens all over the world each day in the name of God. Strange place we live in.
Brian,
You are the reason that reason exists. Come to my pub and I will buy you some drinks. Thank you for that! To go farther than defining God as something amazing....is somthing amazing to me, as well. Intelligience is a seldom-seen, often squandered item in our consciousness.
-Rich
Hehe sounds like fun. I'm sure by about the fourth pitcher of beer we would have both solved all the worlds problems AND discoved the true nature of God and existence. And I'm sure it will all make sense at the time. lol
Keep up the interesting thoughts.
Another vacation and a few more mythical believable thoughts...
Wow a nerd--thanks man! It's been a long time since anyone has called me that--maybe a sibling when I tried to get him or her excited about algebra---I feel honored. My purpose for bringing math into this is in part because I have been doing some more pondering on myth/belief being treated as truth/fact. My family has been perpetuating a myth in our family that we are not "math" people; that we are not good at math. It is a bit of an heirloom that my folks have passed on and is in many ways a self-fulfilling idea because if you tell yourself you are not good at something for a while chances are you won't be good at it--
...Just thinking about ideas that I run into and the struggle I sometimes have in discerning how much something is real or truth versus myth/something my folks or some authority told me was truth.
And so in response to Brian-- thank goodness most folks cannot justify hopping in a plane and taking the lives of thousands but what about all the possible harmful effects we create by actions or biases of a lesser or more obscured degree. On the more extreme side, I wonder about whether I would have been a racist if I had lived in the Deep South 50 years ago being raised by racist parents. I would like to think that I would have been a better person than that but it is rare to really run into or recognize a true test of one's bias. How many of the things in my life that I justify as all right really are?
There was research done by some doctor with an "M" that I can't recall right this second (the test is mentioned in the recent Enron movie "The Smartest Guys In the Room"). The doctor/scientist brought people in to ask a human subject, I believe they could hear but couldn't see, a series of questions. If the subject got the questions wrong the questioner with the doctor was supposed to press a button that would send an electric shock to the person being questioned. The electric shocks increased in intensity each time a question was answered wrong. The questioner could hear the screams of the person being questioned and when the questioner started getting uncomfortable or concerned about what they were doing as long as the doctor told them it was all right and to keep going many questioners continued the process. The study showed that 50% of the questioners were willing to electrocute their subjects to the point of death as long as they were told it was okay. I am sure if those 50% (the killers) were asked if they would hop in a plane and kill a bunch of people in the name of their religion they would probably have answered something to the effect of, “No way!"
So back to God…If you haven't already fallen in love with "This American Life" I would like to introduce you: http://www.thislife.org/
"This American Life" is an awesome radio show that is broadcast on many public radio stations and can be one of the best combinations of great short stories, narration, and music. The program is weekly and is an hour long. Wonderfully, you can also listen to the archived shows online by choosing a particular story and selecting the RealAudio icon.
The show that I wanted to direct you to is titled “Godless America”. If you go to the ThisLife home page and type Godless America into the search field it will come up. Programs always focus around a theme and then there are "Acts" which are different stories that support the theme. In "Godless America" I think it is Act three which is a story by Julia Sweeney (former SNL cast member) that is particularly fantastic [Her movie, "God said, Ha!" (produced by Quentin Tarantino) is one of my top 5 favorites.]
I probably wouldn't normally direct you to “Godless America” if you were a first time listener just because I have a large selection of ThisLife favorites. If you want to be further enticed: David Sedaris frequently reads stories for this program. A good way to get a sampling of what This American Life is like: select "Our Favorites" from the home page or just search for David.
If you don't know about this program and decide to taste it--I am so jealous with something akin to what it would be like to experience first-love again.
Cheers.
The racism issue...it takes courage to even imagine being raised racist, much less wonder this out loud. I applaud that. And I know the shock experiment you reference, but do not know the Dr either. Dammit. I'll have to track it down. How many things do we all do that we only proceed with because someone else tells us that "It's OK"? I fear it's quite a few really devastating things. The beauty of it is our individual threshholds...in the same circumstances, even twins would push to different limits.
OK. I have to go do some blogging. I'm getting razzed for not being as active as I used to. I love peer pressure.
-Rich
What do you mean you like peer pressure? Maybe peers pressure--as in a bunch of people caring about you and cheering you on or daring you to do somethin' you want to do anyway. But I think of you more as the sort of person that will dig in their heels and call on stubborness if pressed. And maybe choose to wait ages to do something just because you were asked. I imagine the allure of being/feeling original and making independent moves and decisions is important to you and can potentially override your doing what you know to be the most rational thing(s) or what others want. I see you as someone who doesn't want to be too predictable. Off-base?
Your twin comment made me think of a favorite bit from a movie-- a couple of lines between brothers not twins. Here is a piece:
"You want to know how I did it? This is how I did it Anton: I never saved anything for the swim back."
Do you know this movie moment?
I love Ethan Hawke. I know the moment well. I always forget Gattaca exists.
The peer pressure thing...I needed you, not someone like you, to say the things you said the way you said them. That is one of the most astute and accurate observations about me that I have heard anyone utter. I mean it. Your words, about waiting to do somethin' I want to do, man...you hit the nail. I do like to put things off or avoid them altogether for the sheer fact that someone is expecting it. That's a habit that I have a hard time with. There are times when I don't even notice it, when I go through with something without thinking. Then there are the other times when I have to think about it...th times when I know something is expected of me and I consciously fail to deliver.
I am all about originality. I like to think so, anyway.
Thanks for the kind words. It's really a blessing to have folks like you around.
Nite.
I decided to revisit this particular series of posts because of your recent one on myth. I hadn't flipped back in a while to see if you responded to whatever I had last left...
So originality--huh--I thought you mentioned, somewhere in this string of posts, that you got a minor in Art History--didn't you have some dizzying conversations about that topic and its death?
I don't know about originality--I haven't been able to settle myself on whether it exists or not or what qualifies. I know it is elusive and I seek it. But your response, "I am all about originality," what does that really mean? In the context of these couple of comments the first thing that bubbled up was unless you are predictably original, originality gets killed through predictable-ness.
Like the last posting about your inclinations for when you decide to do something or not; you sticking to a pattern of being stubborn or not willing to make a move until you think it will be an original moment, or perversely contrary just because someone has made a request---this does not strike me as original.
It hits me that it is much more about control than about originality. And I must say that trying to negotiate a friendship with your desire to be in control has been MIGHTY frustrating at times (hence my slight tirade at the moment). How much of a strong friendship can be had with someone who seems to play such games--how much trust? I know that every one of your decisions is not based on these rules but the very fact that you responded to my "insight" means that this pattern of yours is not rare. This aspect of your personality has certainly affected my ability to feel like I could be truly honest with you at times because I would have to weigh the risk; if I say or ask this thing is it going to piss him off or send him on a course of not responding?
I kinda doubt that I am the only one in your life that has felt the need to negotiate a relationship of rare demands. There can definitely be some pleasure to be found inside of perversity--I in no way would want to see you expunge it from your life-- but there can be large amounts of ego and immaturity as well. These habits potentially ask for a lot of patience from people around you.
Are you just waiting to find someone stubborn enough to outwait you or cry bullshit?
The old adage: 'You can lead a horse to water...
Well, YOU know how it goes and, frankly, so do the folks that know you.
How much do you want to be compared with that horse???
-'til next time--g'day
You are truly a wonder. I just replied to a "new" comment on another blog entry of mine. Nice to find you lurking these halls, too.
There is so much to respond to. And some new thoughts to consider. Originality...that one strikes me as needing the most attention. There is indeed originality. It exists. If only in the remotest of qualifications...like mentioned in Garden State. I know that I have never done a lot of the things I have done before in my life. Let me explain. What I do (or anyone for that matter) is completely original in the sense that it has never been done at that time in that place before. It really is that simple. To search for originality is futile. It's like trying to look for air...you just have to know it is all around you. I guess I don't place too much weight on originality, in that sense. But I use it as a comfort food of sorts. It makes me feel a little stronger in those times when I feel like I am helpless in my own destiny. I wonder if this will make sense in the morning.
Concepts..there is no originality left in concepts. It's become all about the context and syntax. I think. Art History did school me to great extents in taht area.
Negotiating a friendship while desiring to be in control does NOT work. Well, if it does it works very poorly. Waiting for the right moment is a form of control. Sure. I guess I have felt like too many things have been out of my control for a long time. Some things I am starting to reign in and I think a modicum of control is far from a bad thing. Am I the kind of person that needs the control to thrive? I don't think so. I think it's a remnant from the old me that I haven't discarded completely, and I hope I never do. I am not sure what degree of control I need in a relationship...in each relationship I think it has varie and gotten less and less. And the fact that you question how strong and trusting of a friendship someone can have with me..that really does piss me off. Like you know me? You don't. No one does, and that is part of the dilema I am trying to deal with and get through. Judging me by what you read here is far too narrow for someone like you, and I think you ened to look with better eyes than that. A lot of what gets written here is momentary and there isn't always a clear picture of how large of a part it plays in my life. You know the part of me I choose to represent here.
Did you piss me off enough for me to hold ill feelings? No way. I might have been that "stubborn" back when college had its grip on me. But that boy is mostly gone. If someone gets under my skin with their words or feelings, there's a reason. And usually it's a very good reason. One worth thinking and writing about.
You are fearful to say things because of my potential response? I understand. I do that a lot. That's one of the largest stumbling blocks in my life right now. I want to be the kind of person you can speak that way to, though. That is where I want to be. Where I am trying to get.
Am I waiting for someone to outwait me or cry bullshit? Yes. I laughed when I read those words of yours. Because I guess I had never pared it down so simply. I want someone close. Close enought to never lie. Close enough to be fearless with that person. Close enough to know that they WILL be patient. You are right...I need a patient soul. I think I have proven that to you. I get all thick-skinned and resilient-sounding, but there is a lot of me that is going to be spending a long time making sure I am through what I need to be. Maybe I need someone brutally honest. I haven't had that since...well...since Maggie. She took no shit from me. She did at first, but she got so strong. I loved it. I knew I had met a partner. More of a peer than a lot of people have been, or more to the point, more than I have let a lot of people be.
In my bullshit-laden life, I don't let myself be free. It's so hard and it really stifles me. I have the hardest time asking for help. I have the hardest time admitting faults and flaws and whenI need that help. And that often mimics ego. I had a discussion with a someone I respect at work about that very trait of mine.
So thank you for all the thought you help me put back into my life. Don't be shy about it. I won't go anywhere if I get pissed at your words. Or anyone's. I am sitting, looking and listening, very attentively. I am tired of running. I really am.
-Rich
just a brief touch-down...
I don't have enough moments right now to fully chew on your words but I wanted to say this.
I KNOW that I don't know you anymore--it is part of the pain, pleasure, and frustration of remaining in this online discussion. I have a few moments from years ago, some journal-ing words, snd some sent just for me. Does the vision that I have retained of RB dissipate, get nurtured, or crash and burn?
I do not fear saying things if I need to say them. I am all sorts of game for pissing you off if necessary but it is hard to be out of the distance where I can reach over and shake you by the shoulders; that if words fail there is other recourse. It is difficult and of course sometimes enjoyable to rely on just my words but it is also difficult to not be able to know how to get in your face and say,"No,I refuse to just disappear and leave you alone."
My comments about your stubborness etc. came mostly from my experience outside of college-time. When you gave me a bit of the boot and effectively told me to stop contacting you. I wanted to respect your request and I did not want to be a thing that jeopardized your relationship with Maggie so I backed off; I did not storm the castle. I tried to be patient, I did some mourning, and I tried so hard to adjust my ideas about what I had understood our friendship to be. I had to face some hard facts like the fact that you were treating me in the same way that I treated people that I did not particularly want to talk with or be friends with...so perhaps I had misconceived things and it was a case of an unbalanced friendship where one person just plain cares for another too much. Unbalanced; unhealthy.
So now I am enjoying this back and forth--for the most part. I am glad that we still have things that we enjoy sharing with the other. I am basically on my way to finding out just how much I am up for fighting for this friendship again at the same time trying to keep in mind that the view is rather unreal and hazy inside this box.And TINY. I am not trying to over judge your life by the little bits you write down in your blog/journal. I appreciate that I get to see inside at all--- even if it is just a tiny slice of a minor layer. It amazes me that you are willing to use the inside-out services of a blog and open yourself up to a dialogue with so many others as well as yourself.
-damn should'a stopped talking quite a few sentences ago--later
No, I am glad you kept writing.
Unbalanced and unhelathy. You have this habit for hitting the nail smack on the head. I couldn't agree more with those words.
You fighting for this friendship? I don't want you to fight. I took the sidecar for so long, it's my turn to bring that kind of energy to this friendship table. I want you to be involved, don't get me wrong. But more than that, I don't want you to fight for it.
I'm not sure if it was ever a conscious thing, but in hindsight it feels like I needed people to fight for my affection.
It was the allure of this "inside-out" medium that drew me in. I am amazed, as well. I'm not sure how weell it's working, but I was tired of being half-hearted about things. My life was rushing past me and I was too busy feeling bad about myself and sabotaging my life. Inside-out kinda makes sense at this point.
Talk to you soon, kiddo. You are ost definitely welcome into these, and other, slices of my life.
-Rich
And I don't think I ever said it, but I am so sorry for ever giving you the boot, to whatever degree I did. Hindsight is a blessing. Thanks for even talking back to me at this point.
-Rich
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